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	<title>Comments on: Must Gamers be Cynics?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.rough-sea.com/2009/07/must-gamers-be-cynics/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=must-gamers-be-cynics</link>
	<description>Indie game development</description>
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		<title>By: Kaspi</title>
		<link>http://blog.rough-sea.com/2009/07/must-gamers-be-cynics/comment-page-1/#comment-191</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaspi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 16:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rough-sea.com/?p=968#comment-191</guid>
		<description>Make it green and call it card instead of key and you&#039;ll gain access to another country in real life ;) Just marry the right person or be a top talent will help to reach this goal...

Or earn a certain amount of money to reach new freedom (no more work, better living conditions, possibility to visit places that one couldn&#039;t afford previously, new stuff to buy/own, what ever). Or get new contacts and favors with the right guys (shaking hands with the president, getting the necessary papers to build a new parking lot without the normal red tape, gaining entrance to the private club...)

I think there are a lot of real life examples for each type of reward. And sometimes one rewards implicitly leads to another (like mastering a certain skill (facility) makes you famous (glory) and that in turn gets you into new places (access) and provides for sponsoring contracts that feed you (sustenance)).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make it green and call it card instead of key and you&#8217;ll gain access to another country in real life <img src='http://blog.rough-sea.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  Just marry the right person or be a top talent will help to reach this goal&#8230;</p>
<p>Or earn a certain amount of money to reach new freedom (no more work, better living conditions, possibility to visit places that one couldn&#8217;t afford previously, new stuff to buy/own, what ever). Or get new contacts and favors with the right guys (shaking hands with the president, getting the necessary papers to build a new parking lot without the normal red tape, gaining entrance to the private club&#8230;)</p>
<p>I think there are a lot of real life examples for each type of reward. And sometimes one rewards implicitly leads to another (like mastering a certain skill (facility) makes you famous (glory) and that in turn gets you into new places (access) and provides for sponsoring contracts that feed you (sustenance)).</p>
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		<title>By: Rafael</title>
		<link>http://blog.rough-sea.com/2009/07/must-gamers-be-cynics/comment-page-1/#comment-190</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 07:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rough-sea.com/?p=968#comment-190</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve actually read &quot;Swords &amp; Circuitry&quot;, but I&#039;d completely forgotten that (nice) bit of it -- good call, Kaspi.

Can we draw an analogy to real life, I wonder? Reward of Sustenance is getting paid for your job; a Reward of Facility is mastering a new skill; working on free software or winning a football game gives a Reward of Glory... but what do I need to do to get the red keycard?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve actually read &#8220;Swords &#038; Circuitry&#8221;, but I&#8217;d completely forgotten that (nice) bit of it &#8212; good call, Kaspi.</p>
<p>Can we draw an analogy to real life, I wonder? Reward of Sustenance is getting paid for your job; a Reward of Facility is mastering a new skill; working on free software or winning a football game gives a Reward of Glory&#8230; but what do I need to do to get the red keycard?</p>
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		<title>By: Kaspi</title>
		<link>http://blog.rough-sea.com/2009/07/must-gamers-be-cynics/comment-page-1/#comment-188</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaspi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 20:52:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rough-sea.com/?p=968#comment-188</guid>
		<description>Ah, just because I happen to have this &quot;what kind of rpg player are you&quot; quiz open in another tab and it fits just nicely into this discussion :)

Player Type according to Robin D. Laws:
http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/Fashion/ellydragon/laws-game-style/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, just because I happen to have this &#8220;what kind of rpg player are you&#8221; quiz open in another tab and it fits just nicely into this discussion <img src='http://blog.rough-sea.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Player Type according to Robin D. Laws:<br />
<a href="http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/Fashion/ellydragon/laws-game-style/" rel="nofollow">http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/Fashion/ellydragon/laws-game-style/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kaspi</title>
		<link>http://blog.rough-sea.com/2009/07/must-gamers-be-cynics/comment-page-1/#comment-187</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaspi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 20:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rough-sea.com/?p=968#comment-187</guid>
		<description>A nice book regarding this topic is &quot;Swords &amp; Circuitry&quot; by Neal Hallford (PrimaTech). Hallford lists four different types of possible player rewards:

Rewards of Glory: that is simple something a player can talk about to her friends. Like finishing the game, getting a certain achievement (lately most of the games like MassEffect or the whole Steam Stuff features achievements) or finding an easter egg. Some games like MUDs/MMORPGs or Adventures may even live by providing only this sort of rewards.

Rewards of Sustenance: this is everything that lets the player keep her status quo in the game. Basically things like ammo, health, credits, curse breakers. This is a kind of rewards given in plenty to keep the player going.

Rewards of Access: things like door opening keys, NPC favors, new item blue prints etc. These rewards work best if the player has a motivation to reach the other side of the obstacle to which the rewards provides access. But one has to be careful with this type of rewards because not getting it slows the player down. In the worst case she grinds to a halt and quits playing.

Rewards of Facility: new means to do things. Like new spells, new units, new personae. At the best the new facility provides for new strategies and therefore new interesting ways to master the game. These rewards may be temporary, transitory or permanent, thus further splitting them up to supply more variation.


I&#039;m sure there were other helpful classifications in that book. Like player types (the explorer, the buttkicker, the socializer etc.) that help define what kinds of rewards may work in game or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A nice book regarding this topic is &#8220;Swords &amp; Circuitry&#8221; by Neal Hallford (PrimaTech). Hallford lists four different types of possible player rewards:</p>
<p>Rewards of Glory: that is simple something a player can talk about to her friends. Like finishing the game, getting a certain achievement (lately most of the games like MassEffect or the whole Steam Stuff features achievements) or finding an easter egg. Some games like MUDs/MMORPGs or Adventures may even live by providing only this sort of rewards.</p>
<p>Rewards of Sustenance: this is everything that lets the player keep her status quo in the game. Basically things like ammo, health, credits, curse breakers. This is a kind of rewards given in plenty to keep the player going.</p>
<p>Rewards of Access: things like door opening keys, NPC favors, new item blue prints etc. These rewards work best if the player has a motivation to reach the other side of the obstacle to which the rewards provides access. But one has to be careful with this type of rewards because not getting it slows the player down. In the worst case she grinds to a halt and quits playing.</p>
<p>Rewards of Facility: new means to do things. Like new spells, new units, new personae. At the best the new facility provides for new strategies and therefore new interesting ways to master the game. These rewards may be temporary, transitory or permanent, thus further splitting them up to supply more variation.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure there were other helpful classifications in that book. Like player types (the explorer, the buttkicker, the socializer etc.) that help define what kinds of rewards may work in game or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafael</title>
		<link>http://blog.rough-sea.com/2009/07/must-gamers-be-cynics/comment-page-1/#comment-179</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rough-sea.com/?p=968#comment-179</guid>
		<description>It depends on what you mean by &quot;mechanics&quot;. I agree that rich reactions improve a game (as it says in the original post); I just don&#039;t think that the reactions need to &quot;contribute to success or failure&quot;. In your example, rescuing the princess should &lt;i&gt;change&lt;/i&gt; the game but not necessarily &lt;i&gt;reward&lt;/i&gt; you in a classically mechanical way (power ups, points...).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It depends on what you mean by &#8220;mechanics&#8221;. I agree that rich reactions improve a game (as it says in the original post); I just don&#8217;t think that the reactions need to &#8220;contribute to success or failure&#8221;. In your example, rescuing the princess should <i>change</i> the game but not necessarily <i>reward</i> you in a classically mechanical way (power ups, points&#8230;).</p>
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		<title>By: Sirko</title>
		<link>http://blog.rough-sea.com/2009/07/must-gamers-be-cynics/comment-page-1/#comment-178</link>
		<dc:creator>Sirko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rough-sea.com/?p=968#comment-178</guid>
		<description>If the point is, that there is a lot of meaning in a lot of surface things not meaningful for the pure abstract game mechanics, then I agree. But wouldn&#039;t it be better, if the topics and themes of the surface are supported by the game mechanics? In example, to be excommunicated doesn&#039;t effect your soul in the game, because that&#039;s not a concept of it, but people treat you differently if you are excommunicated, because you didn&#039;t care for your soul.

I feel betrayed by a game, that gives me a surface I react to, but doesn&#039;t react to it itself. How do you feel? Imagine you rescue the princess and it doesn&#039;t effect the game. You don&#039;t win, you don&#039;t get any bonus or any change or reward. You could also just walk by and do all the other games stuff. Why is there a princess at all if she doesn&#039;t have any meaning? Or more extreme, imagine there is a princess standing there, but you cannot interact with her anyhow. Just a picture in the game. Crap.

On the other hand, you can think of visuels novel, like this: https://www.yousendit.com/download/Y1RweVdnYTJrWStGa1E9PQ

On the abstract level, it&#039;s a very poor game, almost not a game at all. But the story and pictures give meaning without mechanics beneath, making it an entertainment. Also in this case, I prefer more of the game and less of the story. But I am not everyone.

So again, how about you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the point is, that there is a lot of meaning in a lot of surface things not meaningful for the pure abstract game mechanics, then I agree. But wouldn&#8217;t it be better, if the topics and themes of the surface are supported by the game mechanics? In example, to be excommunicated doesn&#8217;t effect your soul in the game, because that&#8217;s not a concept of it, but people treat you differently if you are excommunicated, because you didn&#8217;t care for your soul.</p>
<p>I feel betrayed by a game, that gives me a surface I react to, but doesn&#8217;t react to it itself. How do you feel? Imagine you rescue the princess and it doesn&#8217;t effect the game. You don&#8217;t win, you don&#8217;t get any bonus or any change or reward. You could also just walk by and do all the other games stuff. Why is there a princess at all if she doesn&#8217;t have any meaning? Or more extreme, imagine there is a princess standing there, but you cannot interact with her anyhow. Just a picture in the game. Crap.</p>
<p>On the other hand, you can think of visuels novel, like this: <a href="https://www.yousendit.com/download/Y1RweVdnYTJrWStGa1E9PQ" rel="nofollow">https://www.yousendit.com/download/Y1RweVdnYTJrWStGa1E9PQ</a></p>
<p>On the abstract level, it&#8217;s a very poor game, almost not a game at all. But the story and pictures give meaning without mechanics beneath, making it an entertainment. Also in this case, I prefer more of the game and less of the story. But I am not everyone.</p>
<p>So again, how about you?</p>
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